Texas X Riders
Tech Talk => Tech Articles and Links => Topic started by: DEMON on May 30, 2010, 08:30:10 PM
-
they show 4 plugs for the VTX 1800C (2002) it says 2 of part # A and two of part # B I just want to make sure that that is correct before I spend $75 in spark plugs that this is correct.
-
DEMON,
Are you refering to the OEM Parts Listing from Direct Line Parts?
2002 C models came with the colder plug that would foul out easier than the hotter plug, I changed out all four to the hotter plug.
I think it was the IFR5L11.
:couch:
-
yes I'm getting them from HDL
so I should get 4 of the IFR6L11 ? (is a 6 not a 5)
-
The 6 is colder; you want to get the 5. A lot of us run the Bosch 4419s; they are a whole lot cheaper than the iridium plugs.
-
+1 on the Bosch 4419's
-
+1 on the Bosch 4419's
+2
-
who sells the bosch 4419's ?
-
HDL - - - the Bosch 4419 work better and last longer than the IFR5L11 and a lot cheaper!
-
O reilly's Auto parts
-
O reilly's Auto parts
:c
-
I know I'm resurrecting this thread, but I just changed out my spark plugs after about 26K miles for some Bosch 4419's that ended costing me about $24.00 for all 4. 1/4th the price they wanted at Wild West Honda for 1 plug. :ohwow: . They seem to be working great and bike seems to be running smooth especially at 5th gear when having to pass a vehicle. Just wanted to give my .02 that the Bosch 4419's are an excellent alternative to the Iridiums from Honda.
-
I know I'm resurrecting this thread, but I just changed out my spark plugs after about 26K miles for some Bosch 4419's that ended costing me about $24.00 for all 4. 1/4th the price they wanted at Wild West Honda for 1 plug. :ohwow: . They seem to be working great and bike seems to be running smooth especially at 5th gear when having to pass a vehicle. Just wanted to give my .02 that the Bosch 4419's are an excellent alternative to the Iridiums from Honda.
:thumbup: I third it!
-
Good to know. Thanks.
-
I know I'm resurrecting this thread, but I just changed out my spark plugs after about 26K miles for some Bosch 4419's that ended costing me about $24.00 for all 4. 1/4th the price they wanted at Wild West Honda for 1 plug. :ohwow: . They seem to be working great and bike seems to be running smooth especially at 5th gear when having to pass a vehicle. Just wanted to give my .02 that the Bosch 4419's are an excellent alternative to the Iridiums from Honda.
:thumbup: I third it!
I 4th it!!
-
This is a reprint of my service notes on my bike pretaining to spark plugs. You may find it helpful.
Date 2-12-10
Mileage 30902
Spark Plug Replacement Autolite XP 3924 from AutoZone $ 28.00
Removed the original OEM spark plugs NGK IFR6L11 (Iridium .040” gap) and installed
Autolite XP 3924 (Iridium) with a .040” gap, which are one range hotter than original OEM and
are equivalent to the NGK IFR 5L11.
This Autolite XP 3924 (XP denotes Xtreme Performance Iridium Enhanced) is a Copper Core, Double Platinum (ground side wire), Fine Wire Center Electrode, Iridium Enhanced, Nickel Plated Shell, Trimmed Side Wire (ground side wire) as per the Autolite description at http://www.autolitecatalog.com/PartDetail.aspx?b=A&pn=XP3924 (http://www.autolitecatalog.com/PartDetail.aspx?b=A&pn=XP3924)
The original IFR6L11 was too cold and had tremendous fouling and build up on all plugs, especially on the deep socket location plugs on both cylinders and it was the worst in the rear cylinder. When comparing both plugs from a given cylinder, the shallow socket location burns cleaner than the deeper socket. The more fouled plug was noticed to be installed/located in the deep socket location in each cylinder. It is suggested by some that this difference in burn cleanliness is a function of the “Wasted Spark” design Honda uses on the bike or a supposed “Reversed Polarity” ignition of the two plugs in each cylinder. This “Reverse Polarity” theory is non-sense as there is no evidence to support this claim. The VTX uses a conventional wasted spark design used on many current bikes with no issues. I don’t believe either theory to be the cause and believe poor head turbulence and overly rich A/F fuel curve as the likely causes. BareAss Choppers suggests the carbon fouling of the deep socket plug is a result of the oil jets under the piston. I disagree with this theory also. Oil jets are standard on many for stroke engines and the VTX's jet system is no different. The carbon fouling on the plugs is a result of over fueling and cool flame fronts, not over oiling. Some minor carbon fouling was noticed on the piston crowns and valves but was not very heavy. It was heavier in the rear cylinder than in the front. Honda made a mistake and chose to install the colder 6L11 on the 2002 (first year) VTX when they should have used the hotter 5L11. Honda made a change in 2003 and speced the 5L11 as the standard plug for models after the 2002 model to correct the fouling problem so prevalent on the 2002 VTX. The OEM rich fuel mapping and poor burning habits of the deep socket location compounds the fouling. I also contributed to the fouling build up due to my mistake of running premium gas most of the time these plugs were in use. Honda specs call for regular grade fuel which burns hotter than premium and thus would not have fouled the plugs as bad as the premium fuel did. While running premium fuel has contrubuted to the fouling due to it's cooler flame front, the major fouling factor is the too cold plug heat range and overly rich fuel curve honda designed in the bike.
See hand written notes on plug socket to valve measurements and actual plug measurements that were taken to compare plug to valve clearance relationship. The Autolite XP3924 project into the head .025” more than the 6L11 plugs. They are still missing the intake valves by .077”. OEM 6L11 plug projection clearance to valve is .102”. These Autolite XP3924 plugs have a projected tip design which extends farther from the plug body than the OEM NGKs. This added projection should help clean the electrode of debris from gas turbulance as is its intended purpose.
Also purchased Bosch 4312+2 (Platinum) as spares. These have a gap of .055” out of the box. $ 21.61
Notes:
- Do not attempt to adjust gap on Bosch plugs with multiple ground elctrodes. Ground arm may break off.
- The NGK BKR5EIX11(Platinum) is functionally equivalent to the IFR5L11 but cheaper.
- Do not use the Autolite XP5224 because it projects too far into head.
Recommended plugs can be found here:
http://www.rattlebars.com/vtx/xplugs.html (http://www.rattlebars.com/vtx/xplugs.html)
http://tech.bareasschoppers.com/engine/spark-plugs-and-the-vtx-1800/ (http://tech.bareasschoppers.com/engine/spark-plugs-and-the-vtx-1800/)
*I tried to verify as many plug numbers as possible but ran into problems finding any concrete answers from many plug manufacturers. The plugs with “*” next to them are verified by the manufacturer as a direct cross-reference, the others are old numbers that were floating around the VTXOA.
Spark plug cross reference for the VTX 1800
Manufacturer OEM (03+ stock) Cold (02 stock)
AC Delco* 41-806 41-801
Autolite (these are double Platinum) APP3924 APP3923
Bosch Platinum +4* 4419 4418
Champion Copper* RC9YC4 RC9YC4
Champion 7346
Champion Double Platinum RC10PYP4
Denso VK16PRZ11 VK20PRZ11
Denso PK20PR11
Denso Iridium* IK16
NGK* IFR5L11 IFR6L11
NGK Iridium BKR5 EIX-11 BKR6 EIX-11
Splitfire* SF522D SF392C
Splitfire Platinum* TP522D TP392C
Uber Power* FZX5iL FZX6iL
OEM Reccomended Gap 1.0 – 1.1mm (.038″ – .043″)
-
More recent service notes:
Date 4-22-11
Mileage 35825
Spark Plug Replacement $ 21.61
I decided to check all plug conditions during my extensive polishing of all the chrome pieces.
In general, the plugs are again very fouled with considerable build up for the short amount of time they have been installed. Only 4923 miles on these plugs at this time. This is disappointing as I expected the hotter heat range Autolites with a more projected tip would be less prone to fouling even though my VTX has a rich OEM fuel map. As seen before with the original OEM plugs, the deep socket location plugs have much more fouling than the shallow location plugs. These plugs are the Autolite XP 3924 (Iridium) with a .040” gap, which are one range hotter than original OEM and are equivalent to the NGK IFR 5L11 (which are used in 2003 and later VTXs) but they still are fouling much more than they should and particularly in the deep socket plug locations. I am considering running a one range hotter plug in the deep socket locations to help burn off the accumulations that seem to be so problematic with this plug location on the VTX. Even these Autolites in the shallow sockets appear to be on the rich side and have too much build up for such a short amount of mileage. This heavy fouling is most likely due to the OEM fuel map and/or poor flame turbulance design of the head. The rich OEM fuel map will cause all plugs to foul more than usual (which it is doing), but poor combustion turbulance will be evident on specific plug locations as can be seen on the deep socket plugs. I will install new plugs (Bosch 4312+2 Platinum) and check their performance before adding any fuel additives to eliminate them as a possible fouling contributors.
Today I installed Bosch 4312+2 (Platinum) which I had as spares. These are one range hotter than the OEM plug (equal to the 2003 VTX plug heat range selection) and are the same heat range as the previous Autolite XP 3924 (Iridium). These Boschs have a gap of .055” out of the box. The ground arms were not adjusted for gap. Do not attempt to adjust gap as ground arms may break off. These plugs have a .100” shorter projection than the Autolites because the two ground arms on the Boschs extend only slightly past the end of the ceramic insulator and the single fine wire electrode which is flush with the ceramic insulator. The shorter tip projection may be a negitive factor in tubulance cleaning of the plug and will be reviewed when these plugs are evaluated in the future. The Autolite XP 3924 single ground arm is a conventional design and extends past its center projecting electrode and bends toward the plug center to meet the electrode, hence the added length. The Bosch projection is .900” measured from the back side of the gasket to the end of the ground electrode. The Autolites measure 1.000”. The Bosch ceramic pocket well depth is .480” which is .020” deeper than the Autolites so they should be hotter and resist fouling better.
I will see how well these plugs resist fouling. I may have to use two different plug heat ranges to keep the deep socket plugs from fouling. Dual heat range plugs should only be considered after the Power Commander and the larger K&N air filter is installed and the A/F ratio is corrected down to a more reasonable ratio.
-
Mike, be careful about installing Autolites. I've tried them in high-performance outboards when I couldn't get my preferred plugs. Autolite's site specifically recommended them. They were crap. Several GOOD marine mechanics with solid experience confirmed my results. Autolite will recommend their products anywhere they will fit, but they fall way short of the mark in many of those applications. Run what works and leave the junk to the rookies.
-
Mike, be careful about installing Autolites. I've tried them in high-performance outboards when I couldn't get my preferred plugs. Autolites site specifically recommended them. They were crap. Several GOOD marine mechanics with solid experience confirmed my results. Autolite will recommend their products anywhere they will fit, but they fall way short of the mark in many of those applications. Run what works and leave the junk to the rookies.
Not trying argue with you because everyone’s experience can be different, but when I was turning wrenches for a living, I never had any problems with Autolite plugs in cars, bikes or anything I found or put them in. I'm not saying I love them, just haven't had any problems with them. I can't say I've ever had any problems with any specific manufacture plug except only to say that in my old two stroke bikes, Champion plugs always seemed to run one heat range colder than everyone else’s plug selections. They always seemed to foul out quicker than any others. As a result I always ran one heat range hotter if it was a Champion. From what I remember that was the case. Understand that just because a brand has a recommended plug for an application, that doesn't mean that's the best selection or a direct cross over from another brands plug for the application. Understand that a brand posting selection charts may error on the cool side of the best heat range selection to avoid potential major engine damage issues at the expense of early fouling or poor performance. When changing from OEM brand to another brand you should always check the heat range of the plug in your engine by proforming WOT plug chops to make sure all is well. This is very important on marine engines because they run at wide open throttle (WOT) so much.
I didn't have any problems with Autolites in my VTX when I had them in their other than getting heavily fouled due to the rich OEM fuel curve, which isn't a fault of the plug. The only reason I tried them was because that was one of the brands AutoZone had in stock for the VTX. I bought Autolite and Bosch to see how they would fit and run in the X compared to the original plugs. Nothing I've put in there runs any different than the OEM's from a performance stand point and I didn't expect anything different. My experimentation was to see how different brands might run cleaner due to their different tip designs and projection into the combustion chamber. Plugs that project deeper into the combustion turbulance and that have more exposed conductor tip generally burn cleaner if they don't obstruct flame propagation so much as to hurt performance.
In my experience, plug brand makes no difference in performance, but plug materials of construction does make a big difference. Platinum was a big improvement over standard Copper core plugs to the same degree Iridium plugs are a big improvement over Platinum plugs. The conductivity and hardness factors of the conductor material are what makes the noticeable differences between a plugs performance and life span.
If the heat range, materials of construction and internal resistance is the same when comparing plug brands, my experience shows there no noticeable difference in performance or longevity. Why would there be? Once the flame front is ignited a plugs job is done. Any brand claims to the contrary is just marketing hype.
Now if you alter the voltage of the spark (by raising it) or lower the resistance of the plug (using different materials of construction which have less resistance like Platinum or Iridium versus Copper), that can make a noticeable difference in performance. Either can produce the same net result. But doing that is not comparing apples to apples between brands if internal resistance if different. I have routinly checked a plugs resistance when changing them and found there is basically no difference, if the materials of construction are the same.
See my post #33 for more info on internal resistance of different types of resistor plugs.
-
"Not trying argue with you " but
:blahblah: :blahblah:
-
Well gee, I guess those Autolites worked great after all..............................
I must've imagined that my outboard ran like crap. And I guess I hallucinated that several RESPECTED marine mechanics all told me to never, ever under any circumstances, put Autolites in my engine, even though Autolite says they're made for my engine. Pardon the hell out of me!
-
We all knew you would come around Jim! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
Well gee, I guess those Autolites worked great after all..............................
I must've imagined that my outboard ran like crap. And I guess I hallucinated that several RESPECTED marine mechanics all told me to never, ever under any circumstances, put Autolites in my engine, even though Autolite says they're made for my engine. Pardon the hell out of me!
Take a chill pill Jim. :simmadown:
In my effort NOT to offend you.............the FIRST thing I said was that I wasn't trying to argue with you and these were my experiences and that everyone experiences are their own. I never said you were wrong, that your out board DIDN'T run like crap, you hallucinated or you didn't know what you were talking about. You stated your experience with them and I stated mine. Nothing more..........nothing less. My comments were not a personal attack on you. It's all posted for the purpose of learning what everyone has experienced. It a sharing of knowledge...........not an attack on you. I suggest you read posts with more of an open mind. Please don't read something into a post that isn't there. Everyone is not out to get you or make you look like an idiot. I'm certainly not. I respect your opinion and the right that everyone has to state theirs.
Please read the first sentence again and understand............MY response to your post is MY opinion about Autolite plugs, not a personal attack on you. While my comments and experience are different from yours, it's not a critic of your opinion or experience with them and it wasn't meant to be. I'm sorry if you perceived it that way.
In the words of the great scholar Rodney King............"Can't we all just get along?" ;D
-
:pot: :pot:
I always miss the good stuff, but it is so very nice to be in BC Canada, only issue is they don't really like to give work visa to US ::)
-
What you trying to say in plain language is "your a coonass stuck in Canada with no crawdaddys or boudan". There is lots of cold :c :c :c :c
-
What you trying to say in plain language is "your a coonass stuck in Canada with no crawdaddys or boudan". There is lots of cold :c :c :c :c
Right lots of cold beer, problem is I can't have any, staying in a camp in the middle of moose country and they do not allow any beer, wine or any mind altering goodies.
Actually have drug dogs come in random times, like a prison camp. :ohwow: :ohwow:
Took a ride last night and moose were at every watering hole, deer and I mean big deer every where, saw a few bison and elk. Got back to the camp around 9:30 first thing I had to do was blow the tube to show I had no drinks while out of the camp. :banghead: :banghead: :cuss: :cuss:
-
What you trying to say in plain language is "your a coonass stuck in Canada with no crawdaddys or boudan". There is lots of cold :c :c :c :c
Right lots of cold beer, problem is I can't have any, staying in a camp in the middle of moose country and they do not allow any beer, wine or any mind altering goodies.
Actually have drug dogs come in random times, like a prison camp. :ohwow: :ohwow:
Took a ride last night and moose were at every watering hole, deer and I mean big deer every where, saw a few bison and elk. Got back to the camp around 9:30 first thing I had to do was blow the tube to show I had no drinks while out of the camp. :banghead: :banghead: :cuss: :cuss:
Man, you sure do like those crappy jobs! :stickpoke:
-
What you trying to say in plain language is "your a coonass stuck in Canada with no crawdaddys or boudan". There is lots of cold :c :c :c :c
Right lots of cold beer, problem is I can't have any, staying in a camp in the middle of moose country and they do not allow any beer, wine or any mind altering goodies.
Actually have drug dogs come in random times, like a prison camp. :ohwow: :ohwow:
Took a ride last night and moose were at every watering hole, deer and I mean big deer every where, saw a few bison and elk. Got back to the camp around 9:30 first thing I had to do was blow the tube to show I had no drinks while out of the camp. :banghead: :banghead: :cuss: :cuss:
Man, you sure do like those crappy jobs! :stickpoke:
I've never been to prison, but this is what I think it must be like :-\
-
What you trying to say in plain language is "your a coonass stuck in Canada with no crawdaddys or boudan". There is lots of cold :c :c :c :c
Right lots of cold beer, problem is I can't have any, staying in a camp in the middle of moose country and they do not allow any beer, wine or any mind altering goodies.
Actually have drug dogs come in random times, like a prison camp. :ohwow: :ohwow:
Took a ride last night and moose were at every watering hole, deer and I mean big deer every where, saw a few bison and elk. Got back to the camp around 9:30 first thing I had to do was blow the tube to show I had no drinks while out of the camp. :banghead: :banghead: :cuss: :cuss:
You can say you have a job.................Sometimes work is a bummer but it does bring in the money. Good for you.
-
What you trying to say in plain language is "your a coonass stuck in Canada with no crawdaddys or boudan". There is lots of cold :c :c :c :c
Right lots of cold beer, problem is I can't have any, staying in a camp in the middle of moose country and they do not allow any beer, wine or any mind altering goodies.
Actually have drug dogs come in random times, like a prison camp. :ohwow: :ohwow:
Took a ride last night and moose were at every watering hole, deer and I mean big deer every where, saw a few bison and elk. Got back to the camp around 9:30 first thing I had to do was blow the tube to show I had no drinks while out of the camp. :banghead: :banghead: :cuss: :cuss:
Man, you sure do like those crappy jobs! :stickpoke:
I've never been to prison, but this is what I think it must be like :-\
Sounds just like working offshore. At least you get great food.
-
(http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab116/Gumbo01/Canada/Moose.jpg)
Seen any of these lately ???
-
Not since the Nova Scotia trip.
-
dang you blowing tubes at work????, is not that sexual harassment :rofl: :rofl: :no no:
-
Well gee, I guess those Autolites worked great after all..............................
I must've imagined that my outboard ran like crap. And I guess I hallucinated that several RESPECTED marine mechanics all told me to never, ever under any circumstances, put Autolites in my engine, even though Autolite says they're made for my engine. Pardon the hell out of me!
Take a chill pill Jim. :simmadown:
In my effort NOT to offend you.............the FIRST thing I said was that I wasn't trying to argue with you and these were my experiences and that everyone experiences are their own. I never said you were wrong, that your out board DIDN'T run like crap, you hallucinated or you didn't know what you were talking about. You stated your experience with them and I stated mine. Nothing more..........nothing less. My comments were not a personal attack on you. It's all posted for the purpose of learning what everyone has experienced. It a sharing of knowledge...........not an attack on you. I suggest you read posts with more of an open mind. Please don't read something into a post that isn't there. Everyone is not out to get you or make you look like an idiot. I'm certainly not. I respect your opinion and the right that everyone has to state theirs.
Please read the first sentence again and understand............MY response to your post is MY opinion about Autolite plugs, not a personal attack on you. While my comments and experience are different from yours, it's not a critic of your opinion or experience with them and it wasn't meant to be. I'm sorry if you perceived it that way.
In the words of the great scholar Rodney King............"Can't we all just get along?" ;D
**************************************************************************************************
Mike, been busy and just now got back to this. Sorry it took so long. I didn't take your response personally; what I did have a problem with is that even though it's common knowledge that the Autolites won't work in those outboards, Autolite continues to recommend them for that application. That's just wrong. I can't respect a company that markets their product that way. They're either too incompetent to test their product and to gather feedback from the industry, or they just don't care that they are selling a product that they know won't work. Either way, they won't get a penny of my money.
-
Jim
We can all learn something new every day if we look for answers. Me included...........So I looked deeper into why Autolite plugs do not work well in outboards as you claimed. Looks like there may be evidence of this.
I've always known CDI ignition systems (like those used on outboards and on some bikes) need a resistor type plug, but I didn't know there are different types of resistor plugs on the market.
There are the Monolithic Graphite and Glass type which are both high resistance type plugs and then there is an Inductive Coil type which offers a much lower resistance that is preffered on CDI systems.
The two types can have a noticeable effect on the performance of low spark voltage CDI systems, due to their internal resistance, especially if the ignition system produces marginal spark voltage. After researching different plug types and talking to three different Autolite engineers and an NGK engineer, Autolite admitted their plugs are the Monolithic Graphite type and not Inductive Coil type. They stated the Monolithic Graphite type is not the best type for marine CDI systems due to the noramlly low ignition voltage. That explains why they sometimes don't work as well with a marine CDI ignition systems that needs a lower resistance type plug to produce the best spark. The Autolite engineers admitted they have always just cataloged their Monolithic Graphite type resistor plugs for marine applications because that's the only resistor type they made, but as of just last year, they are now making and cataloging four new Inductive resistor type plugs specifically for marine applications. Looks like NGK and Champion are the only two other plug manufactures I found that make Inductive resistor type plugs. I always used NGK "Z" type plugs in my outboard boat and any motorcycles that ran CDI ignitions and I didn't have any problems. Now I know why. I've never had experiance with Autolites in marine applications so I haven't experenced the problems you've seen.
This is some of the info I found on the internet about the different type resistor plugs.
NGK's explination of Resistor type plugs for outboards.
Inductive Resistor Spark Plugs Specified as original equipment in a variety of late-model outboard engines, spark plugs with an inductive resistor are utilized when a CDI (capacitive discharge ignition) system is used. The resistor plug is necessary to reduce radio frequency interference (RFI), to prevent interference with the sophisticated electronics onboard modern boats.
Most resistor spark plugs use a "monolithic" resistor, generally made of graphite and glass materials, to filter the electrical voltage as it passes through the center electrode. This "filter" reduces RFI to an acceptable level. Although this type of resistor develops from 1000 to 5000 ohms of resistance, there is no significant loss of voltage to affect ignitability at the electrodes in modern automotive ignition systems.
However, outboard marine engines utilizing a CDI system have a much lower voltage output, which would be compromised by a standard resistor plug. Therefore, an inductive resistor is used. In this method, a coiled nickel wire is inserted into the center stem, and held in place by a spring.
This coil basically acts as an electromagnet, inducing a magnetic field around the center stem, creating a natural "field" resistor, and reduces RFI to acceptable levels. This method creates only 40 ohms of physical resistance, compared to the 1000 to 5000 ohms of resistance in "monolithic" resistor plugs.
While Inductive Resistor Spark Plugs cost more than standard resistor plugs, they provide major benefits in late-model marine outboard applications.
SparkPlug.com explination of Resistor type plugs for outboards.
CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) for outboard marine motors is basically a refined version of the old magneto ignition system, except the points have been replaced with electronic circuitry. CDI is used on some (not all) late model marine engines such as Johnson and Evinrude, and some late model motorcycle engines. Do not use a "regular" resistor type plg on a motor with this type of Capacitive Discharge Ignition as this will cause misfire and poor performance. Rather, make sure to use a plug with an inductive type resistor (such as a Champion Q-type or NGK Z-type). Use of non-inductive resistor type plugs on these motors can create an open circuit within the spark plug (it will become a dead plug).
Modified automotive racing motors also have a form of CDI, (such as Mallory, MSD, Crane and Accel), these should not be confused with the marine or powersport systems, please refer to High output ignition systems for more information.